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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2010 22:45:29 GMT -5
Hi,
well, i am NOT a SK player although im used to server with massive SK:
On Goldrush i prefer to run through axis spawn to get to the gold the sneaky way.
I wait for axis player to leave the spawn...then run through. Now in 1 of 10 times there ist still an axis player in the spawn.
If he is afk, i just pass, but if the player will shoot at me i shoot to get through.
Ok...my question: Any chance to change this rules accordingly?
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Post by oZ{QAW} on Jul 13, 2010 23:51:49 GMT -5
If you choose to run through spawn, you can't shoot even if the players who just spawned shoot at you, That's the rule.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2010 0:07:34 GMT -5
just to get it right oz:
you guys prefer to stick to a rule that ruins part of the gameplay just because it was once declared as a never-ever modifiable rule?
Dont get me wrong, anti sk is great, but in order to capture flags, etc its just part of the game.
In this particular case..to get to the gold allies HAVE to have a chance to pass that way.
Its ok to go for the mortar guy....but i CANT pass the spawn to get to the gold? Maybe modify the "golden rule" on goldrush?
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Post by oZ{QAW} on Jul 14, 2010 0:25:23 GMT -5
Just to clarify, I don’t make the rules or have any authority to change them. (that is something for clan members) Qaw has been nice enough to allow me to come to their “house” and I respect their rules. cheers
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Post by Solex{QAW} on Jul 14, 2010 0:47:34 GMT -5
just to get it right oz: you guys prefer to stick to a rule that ruins part of the gameplay just because it was once declared as a never-ever modifiable rule? Dont get me wrong, anti sk is great, but in order to capture flags, etc its just part of the game. In this particular case..to get to the gold allies HAVE to have a chance to pass that way. Its ok to go for the mortar guy....but i CANT pass the spawn to get to the gold? Maybe modify the "golden rule" on goldrush? You CAN pass as many times through Axis spawn as you like.........but you just can't shoot at ppl inside spawn even if they start shooting at you, except mortar FO feeding mortar etc. Those are the rules.....just live by them.
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Post by Lion{QAW} on Jul 14, 2010 1:44:57 GMT -5
Dont get me wrong, anti sk is great, but in order to capture flags, etc its just part of the game. Exceptions to the "no spawnkill" rule: 1. All contestable spawns are fair game until such point as they are taken permanently. 2. You may enter the spawn in order to kill a Mortar or Field Ops that is utilizing the spawn for cover as they fight. 3. When an objective is in or near the spawn. For example: Goldrush: When the tank has first been moved. Axis may continue to fight in the courtyard until the tank crosses the arch by the cart. Radar: If the Allies have the parts and Axis suspect they are hiding in the forward bunker or the house they may enter in order to secure the parts. Once the parts are secured, Axis must once again respect spawn boundaries.
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Post by TomFury{QAW} on Jul 14, 2010 3:03:11 GMT -5
I like to run through the Axis spawn myself. The majority of the time it is empty, but it can be a heart-sinking sight when 10+ people spawn right on top of you. The only thing you can do is run and pray. If they continue following you out of the spawn area and you are in a position to fight, then do so. But you must only do so outside of the spawn. Remember that players CAN NOT use the spawn area to hide or duck back in to reload or heal. If they do, they are fair game, BUT make sure you are going after the right person. I'm sorry if you think this ruins part of the gameplay but we have found over the last 6 years this actually enhances the gameplay and the enjoyment for all players.
The SK pictures and rules will be updated over the next month or so to make things clearer. When I did them back in '04 I see that I was too vague on some points and did not make certain things clear about the pictures (ie the red zones in many cases took artillery into account). The new pictures will (hopefully) be easy to understand and fair for all.
Thanks!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2010 10:38:29 GMT -5
Thank you very much for the detailed answers!! Your server rocks anyway, its fun to battle with you guys.
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Sgt. AWOLaLot
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"Ah yes! I was wondering what would break first. Your spirit... or your body."
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Post by Sgt. AWOLaLot on Jul 14, 2010 16:29:54 GMT -5
I just want to add something. I thought you could shoot back at people shooting you EVEN while in their spawn. I've never been in that situation but that's the way I've understood it. In case I'm wrong let me know.
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Post by <AL>{QAW} on Jul 14, 2010 18:00:41 GMT -5
If this is out of line i would appreciate knowing .... any way guess who this came from??? Any class doing anything that helps their team is fair game. In the rules where it says "mortar or fops", that is just an example (they are the two most common situations where this rule applies) but it applies to anyone doing anything to help the team.
A medic throwing packs is fair game, a fops throwing ammo, and indeed, a medic reviving someone inside the spawn boundries IS fair game. Same with eng planting mines, covert throwing smoke, etc...
Basically - if they do anything that requires clicking the mouse 1 button, they are fair game.
Now to nip in the bud -> CAMPING in order to catch ammo fops and pack meds coming out of the spawn is still illegal! Its not like you can go looking for them haha, but in the situation like the OP said, the med trying to revive is definitely fair game. Assuming the initial kill was fair (mortar or whatever) which in this case, sounds like it was.
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Post by TomFury{QAW} on Jul 14, 2010 20:53:43 GMT -5
No, if they shoot at you as you are passing through the spawn, you can NOT shoot back (assuming they are newly spawned or coming back from afk or whatever). You get swarmed by spawning enemies, you run and pray.
The difference between that and what Zohar posted is that the examples he is referring to are those that are actively staying in the spawn and using it as a base of attack. The mortar is obvious (he is attacking). The FOp feeding ammo and the Medic healing him are aiding him in his attack therefore are engaged in offense as well. They are valid targets.
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Sgt. AWOLaLot
Server Admin
"Ah yes! I was wondering what would break first. Your spirit... or your body."
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Post by Sgt. AWOLaLot on Jul 14, 2010 21:18:13 GMT -5
OK. Thanks for the headsup Tom. I'll remember that if I'm in that situation.
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Post by I3lessed on Jul 14, 2010 21:27:09 GMT -5
The way I understand it is if you enter spawn on a run through anyone in spawn who actively helped their team *BEFORE* you entered spawn by doing things like feeding ammo, med packs, shooting out of spawn etc... is fair game. Once you enter spawn if someone only then takes offensive by shooting at you its your lose, the only exception I really accept to this is a med who starts healing while your in spawn then becomes fair game, other then that they really have to make the action before you enter.
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Post by TomFury{QAW} on Jul 15, 2010 17:01:56 GMT -5
Correct. The spawn may not be used as a safe haven for combatants to heal or reload or escape being killed. In these cases they can be chased and engaged. However, one must be very careful not to inflict collateral damage on those in the spawn legally or, worse, target the wrong player entirely. If there is any question (ie you chase a guy that was shooting at you into the spawn and you find there are 2 people in there), the smart course of action is to retreat.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2010 6:26:44 GMT -5
There is no reason to run through your enemy spawn unless you have dressed in their uniform... Please see attached example! Attachments:
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2010 9:33:05 GMT -5
Correct. The spawn may not be used as a safe haven for combatants to heal or reload or escape being killed. In these cases they can be chased and engaged. However, one must be very careful not to inflict collateral damage on those in the spawn legally or, worse, target the wrong player entirely. If there is any question (ie you chase a guy that was shooting at you into the spawn and you find there are 2 people in there), the smart course of action is to retreat. This is one of the "exceptions" to the SK rule that cause the most grief on the server. For example, Gold Rush, Axis soldier sets up MG in spawn exit right beside tank, Allied Engineer comes running down alley and gets fired upon by MG, so he shoots his riflenade at the MG soldier in the spawn exit, and also kills an Axis covop who was leaving spawn. Now, according to the rules, the Allied Engineer has committed an SK violation and can be warned/kicked/banned for doing so. Even though it is the Axis team which is using the spawn area/exit to fight from, your rules put the burden of responsibility to not break the sk rules on the opposing team. So using the spawn exit/area to fight from still gives the team doing so an unfair advantage because the other team is limited in the tactics and weapons they can use under the current SK rules to attack the soldiers using the spawn as a staging ground.
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Post by THERION{QAW} on Jul 18, 2010 14:13:55 GMT -5
Correct. The spawn may not be used as a safe haven for combatants to heal or reload or escape being killed. In these cases they can be chased and engaged. However, one must be very careful not to inflict collateral damage on those in the spawn legally or, worse, target the wrong player entirely. If there is any question (ie you chase a guy that was shooting at you into the spawn and you find there are 2 people in there), the smart course of action is to retreat. This is one of the "exceptions" to the SK rule that cause the most grief on the server. For example, Gold Rush, Axis soldier sets up MG in spawn exit right beside tank, Allied Engineer comes running down alley and gets fired upon by MG, so he shoots his riflenade at the MG soldier in the spawn exit, and also kills an Axis covop who was leaving spawn. Now, according to the rules, the Allied Engineer has committed an SK violation and can be warned/kicked/banned for doing so. Even though it is the Axis team which is using the spawn area/exit to fight from, your rules put the burden of responsibility to not break the sk rules on the opposing team. So using the spawn exit/area to fight from still gives the team doing so an unfair advantage because the other team is limited in the tactics and weapons they can use under the current SK rules to attack the soldiers using the spawn as a staging ground. Well from my point of view, is this scenario u have 2 options: 1: kill the soldier with Rifle,SMG, pistol, knife,trying to avoid use nades, flamer, and collateral damage weapons; also u must be aware of some players can spawn at that time, and if u shoot at them that is SK. 2: Ask the soldier to leave out the spawn even if the soldier is in ur own team, if is that the case, admins for sure will take care of it. just my 0.02 cents cheers
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Post by Zohar{QAW} on Jul 18, 2010 14:26:02 GMT -5
Blarg.
I often want to just make SK legal, say "everyone keep an eye out!" and call it good. We cant seem to follow the spirit of the rule, and we'd be here for a thousand years defining every possible situation that could occur.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2010 19:41:34 GMT -5
Well from my point of view, is this scenario u have 2 options: 1: kill the soldier with Rifle,SMG, pistol, knife,trying to avoid use nades, flamer, and collateral damage weapons; also u must be aware of some players can spawn at that time, and if u shoot at them that is SK. It is still putting the burden of trying not to SK on the opposing team, instead of the team that is using the spawn exit to fire from, and the opposing team has to put themselves in the line of fire instead of lobbing a grenade from around the corner, or shooting a nade from down the alley to dislodge the shooter from the spawn exit; it's just not the most balanced of sk rules. 2: Ask the soldier to leave out the spawn even if the soldier is in ur own team, if is that the case, admins for sure will take care of it. To be honest, I wouldn't feel comfortable asking a soldier not to setup his MG in the spawn exit, as there is nothing in the rules that says he can't do that.
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Post by TomFury{QAW} on Jul 18, 2010 22:57:00 GMT -5
I lob/shoot the nade. Seriously, the risk is fairly minimal. I don't see the mg in spawn exit all the time and the chance that not only will the mg be there, but there will be a straggler coming out of the spawn AND I will be shooting a nade at the same time is rather slim.
Of course, you can take multiple routes that do not put you in the line of fire and deal with the mg easily using any weapon, you are not forced to go down that street. Once you're on top of him he can't move/change weapons all that quickly. He's a sitting duck.
We could sit and come up with every scenario and every permutation of every scenario imaginable (both realistic and unrealistic) but it's counterproductive. There will always be someone that comes up with "well what if there is a bird flying by and the nade bounces off the bird and hits a guy's helmet and bounces into the spawn and kills an afk guy OMG IS IT TEH SK?!??!!11"
Most situations are covered and more will be addressed in the update. The more fantastical ones will just have to be handled at the time and with discretion by the admins. Simple really.
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Post by Dire.Wolf{QAW} on Jul 19, 2010 1:19:45 GMT -5
my 2 cents after playing here for 3+ years and routinely hunting mortars, especially on gold rush, where they like to sit right outside allied spawn- i pop a nade at them from distance, break their kill spree, and run i think it is entirely on me whether i sk or not - if i splash damage someone i shouldn't have, then i messed up and deserve a warn or time out. but considering the vast number of times i've done it with no incident (ask gak ) i truly don't believe using a nade should be an issue i think it's rather cheap to sit in spawn, running up a kill spree, having all that extra protection (even bodyguards, lol) they deserve a nade in the face once in a while so, smg, rifle, knife, or pistol only i think is extreme and unnecessary if one inists on that sort of rule, then perhaps no-one should use spawn to fight from...
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Post by Dire.Wolf{QAW} on Jul 19, 2010 1:21:56 GMT -5
and yeah, blech - sk is such an issue, especially lately, to heck with it all throw out sk rules, and admins would no longer have to sit in spec to figure out 'who's doing it' or listen to players complaining, often wrongly all the threads re: sk would disappear, and players kicked for it would no longer be posting and stirring things up
instead, admins might just need to occasionally re-balance teams when one is 'hopelessly' stuck in spawn
generally that's not too big a deal - enough players might switch, especially when asked
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Post by Dire.Wolf{QAW} on Jul 19, 2010 1:24:46 GMT -5
This is one of the "exceptions" to the SK rule that cause the most grief on the server. For example, Gold Rush, Axis soldier sets up MG in spawn exit right beside tank, Allied Engineer comes running down alley and gets fired upon by MG, so he shoots his riflenade at the MG soldier in the spawn exit, and also kills an Axis covop who was leaving spawn. Now, according to the rules, the Allied Engineer has committed an SK violation and can be warned/kicked/banned for doing so. Even though it is the Axis team which is using the spawn area/exit to fight from, your rules put the burden of responsibility to not break the sk rules on the opposing team. So using the spawn exit/area to fight from still gives the team doing so an unfair advantage because the other team is limited in the tactics and weapons they can use under the current SK rules to attack the soldiers using the spawn as a staging ground. Well from my point of view, is this scenario u have 2 options: 1: kill the soldier with Rifle,SMG, pistol, knife,trying to avoid use nades, flamer, and collateral damage weapons; also u must be aware of some players can spawn at that time, and if u shoot at them that is SK. 2: Ask the soldier to leave out the spawn even if the soldier is in ur own team, if is that the case, admins for sure will take care of it. just my 0.02 cents cheers the other problem is that the rnade engy comin from truck barrier doesn't have the option to whip out his pistol and shoot the offending mg - he's already been fired upon, and mg gets the advantage of considerable extra protection
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Post by THERION{QAW} on Jul 19, 2010 12:16:37 GMT -5
Well, like Zoh and Tom said, we can have this endless discussion for years, 'cause each one of us have their own point of view. Sk pics and server rules are being updated right now. So let's keep the spirit of the No SK rule meanwhile we have updated rules cheers
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Post by Lion{QAW} on Jul 19, 2010 12:27:52 GMT -5
I lob/shoot the nade. Seriously, the risk is fairly minimal. I don't see the mg in spawn exit all the time and the chance that not only will the mg be there, but there will be a straggler coming out of the spawn AND I will be shooting a nade at the same time is rather slim. Of course, you can take multiple routes that do not put you in the line of fire and deal with the mg easily using any weapon, you are not forced to go down that street. Once you're on top of him he can't move/change weapons all that quickly. He's a sitting duck. We could sit and come up with every scenario and every permutation of every scenario imaginable (both realistic and unrealistic) but it's counterproductive. There will always be someone that comes up with "well what if there is a bird flying by and the nade bounces off the bird and hits a guy's helmet and bounces into the spawn and kills an afk guy OMG IS IT TEH SK?!??!!11" Most situations are covered and more will be addressed in the update. The more fantastical ones will just have to be handled at the time and with discretion by the admins. Simple really. Yup, I agree. I think the rules are pretty fair and easy (especially after the update, which is, I have to say, outstanding!) It's indeed useless to discuss certain uncommon hypothetical cases, while the admins here are doing a fine job in upholding the rules and let the game be a game at the same time. Just play on!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2010 14:04:04 GMT -5
... It's indeed useless to discuss certain uncommon hypothetical cases... I don't think I would consider soldier+MG in the spawn exit, or soldier+mortar in the spawn, uncommon or hypothetical, considering that they both happen daily on the server.
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Post by Lion{QAW} on Jul 19, 2010 15:26:08 GMT -5
... It's indeed useless to discuss certain uncommon hypothetical cases... I don't think I would consider soldier+MG in the spawn exit, or soldier+mortar in the spawn, uncommon or hypothetical, considering that they both happen daily on the server. You are right. But I wasn't referring to this case specifically, just made a general remark.
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Post by Porridge{QAW} on Jul 19, 2010 16:41:06 GMT -5
... It's indeed useless to discuss certain uncommon hypothetical cases... I don't think I would consider soldier+MG in the spawn exit, or soldier+mortar in the spawn, uncommon or hypothetical, considering that they both happen daily on the server. Hi BeardPick - Thanks for your continued interest in getting the "grey" area in the rules resolved. Firstly, let me say that I enjoy playing with/against you on the server - altho' I have to keep looking up at the sky . Regarding MG at the spawn exit, I tend to agree that it causes some grief every once in a while. All I can say is that personally as an admin, if I noticed that you fired off a rifle nade to kill the player using the MG, I would NOT warn or kick you for SK, even in the unlikely situation that you did cause some collateral/splash damage. Having a pistol out and trying to kill a skilled MG player like Pikachu or Kotex is just a death wish IMO. However, we ask you for some patience in getting this sorted out, since as others have mentioned, the senior QAW officers are massaging the rules and should have an update shortly. As pertaining to the original post made by Kasimir, I believe the answer is relatively simple. If you do choose to pass through an axis spawn point on your way to the objective (esp. in golfrush or oasis), you are subjecting yourself to a judgement call if you decide to open fire in the "forbidden zone". IMO that would be a good time to sprint or strafe jump past the spawn as I have seen many do on the server. If you do notice a fld ops with his binocs out (camping at the spawn exit) or a mobile MG - you could choose to shoot them. But if you see others in the area who might have just spawned next to the campers - the best course of action is to sprint to the "safe zone". See you guys on the server.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2010 16:24:13 GMT -5
I did not play for a long time and I need two explanations. I watched spawn boundaries pictures and I got warned for killing someone upstairs on oasis near the axis spawn in front of the guns. The picture clearly shows the spawn stops at the bottom of the stairs so who tells the truth ? pic or admin ?
Also I'd like to know if it is ok to kill someone that already spawned and goes back into the spawn to use it as a cover or shall we just forget about that and go through another way ?
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Post by TomFury{QAW} on Aug 26, 2010 17:33:26 GMT -5
I did not play for a long time and I need two explanations. I watched spawn boundaries pictures and I got warned for killing someone upstairs on oasis near the axis spawn in front of the guns. The picture clearly shows the spawn stops at the bottom of the stairs so who tells the truth ? pic or admin ? Also I'd like to know if it is ok to kill someone that already spawned and goes back into the spawn to use it as a cover or shall we just forget about that and go through another way ? Hi fr33man, welcome back! Since I was not present and did not actually see how the event unfolded, I can only answer based on the info you have provided. You are correct in that the stairs are not specifically in the red area. I think the situation as a whole is important to consider to give a real answer however. If one is camping the doorway and shooting Axis as they run up the stairs, that is considered spawn camping and not acceptable. If one is running up the stairs and starts getting shot in the back it is better to either die as you curse your horrible timing or try and make it around the corner and return fire. As to the other matter, an enemy using the spawn for cover is a legal target. He has no spawn protection and can be legally hunted down. That being said, this is another case of using your better judgement. If you follow someone into their spawn knowing they are a legal kill, what happens if you turn the corner and see 2 people? Or more? Who is your target? Play it safe and retreat. Unless you can guarantee your kill is legal, always err on the side of caution. Thanks!
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