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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2015 14:28:12 GMT -5
I didn't want to hijack Robmadman's thread about killing Mortar's in spawn, but I also would like to comment on the server rules with regards to Spawn Killing and Mortars.
I feel the spawn killing rules unfairly protect Mortars and give them unfair advantage, especially on maps like Goldrush or Oasis where the spawn area is small and it is too easy to inadvertently maim/kill an "innocent" in the spawn area as you try to eliminate the Mortar threat.
I have a solution and I respectfully submit this to the powers that be for an official change to the server rules:
Mortars are no longer allowed to shoot from spawn. If you wish to Mortar, you must do it from an area outside of spawn, or more specifically, the protected areas that are marked in "red" that QAW states is an extension of spawn.
If you make this a server rule change, I guarantee the instances of spawn killing or warnings or kick/bans for spawn killing will go down dramatically. Yes, people that love to mortar will hem and haw and curse, but hey, that's tough. You no longer get to camp in the safety of spawn. I hate having to play Mortar Hunter when I play goldrush. I want to attack around the tank and support my team. But when the mortar is raining down hell-fire I have to split off from the group and sit and wait and hide near the spawn area for the mortar to respawn, then kill him, then wait and hide, then kill him again. And all the while, I risk getting killed by spawning teammates or risk getting warnings for spawn killing (well, spawn shooting). That is boring, but it must be done. If the mortar was in an open area, he would be easier to kill from distance, especially with an rnade. And that is the risk of mortaring...you are ultra vulnerable.
Anyway, that is my two cents. Please, I welcome a healthy discussion on this topic. Please don't feel shy to share your thoughts on this.
Thanks.
- AKS.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2015 14:36:08 GMT -5
Oh, how about an extension of this server rule change or another rule change that also might work. IF YOU HAVE A MORTAR IN SPAWN, THEN SPAWN KILLING IS ALLOWED. Oooh, I like that a lot actually. Think about it, you will get the teammates of the mortar camper actively making him move out of spawn so that he doesn't get the rest of the team wasted by people spawn killing. That...would...be...awesome! It is one way to enforce the no-mortar-spawn rule (if you choose to make that official) or to prevent mortar camping in spawn as it opens the flood gate to spawn killing. I know the chances for getting the server rules changed are low, but maybe think about the possibility. It's all I ask. And comment...I think is enough people weigh in, then well, we will know if people also feel the same way or not. Maybe I am the only one who thinks this way?
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Cmdo.Delta
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Post by Cmdo.Delta on Jan 25, 2015 14:42:31 GMT -5
Don't agree with you at all.
It's easy to kill mortar on goldrush. Just be aware of spawn time and it becomes a piece of... cake!!!.... to kill the mortar... I do it, lethal does it, slaughter does it... so much people doing it! Same when you have to kill allied mortar on goldrush.. it's not that hard to sneak behind enemy lines to get the mortar because there is so much different ways to reach their spawn without being seen....
On Oasis, it's not the fact that the mortar is hiding in spawn that makes him hard to get. It's because paths to the objective are really small and it's hard for both side to sneak behind enemy lines. So its pretty fair. It can be very hard for allies to get a hidden axis mortar and it's very hard for axis to sneak to get the allied mortar. Most allied mortar are not even hiding in spawn and still are almost unreachable due to how the map is made.
Honestly, find the spawn time and you can do whatever you want freely without being in danger at any moment.
And if the enemy mortar is unreachable, most of time it's because team are not really balanced and the stronger team have an easy time to protect their mortar just because they are already killing everyone long time before they can get close to him. It almost never happens when team are pretty fair because there is always a good player to take mort down.
I stopped counting the games I gave up doing mortar because even while hiding in spawn, someone was coming every 2 minutes to kill me making impossible for me do be a threat and being useful to my team.
But maybe it's because you never playing mortar that you say that?
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Cmdo.Delta
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Post by Cmdo.Delta on Jan 25, 2015 14:51:05 GMT -5
And just saying.. Being a rambo med (ya ya that thing you doing 99% of time ) is, to me, by far 10 times easier than being a good mortar. I'm dying less often and doing way much more kills as a rambo med than as mortar hiding in the goldrush spawn. So should we do as those servers were medics can't heal themselves with their own med pack to make it more fair? So rambo medic as you stop camping spawn on fuel dump or whatever just because you are unkillable? ya ya unkillable because when you are about to get killed, you run away to heal yourself before coming back.. is that fair? As a mortar lover, I can tell you that it's way harder to master and to be effective than a rambo med and that the rules are not unfairly protecting them at all... Maybe you should give up medic sometime and play mort uh? I promise to visit you every time i can until you rage and decides to give up to go back to rambo med!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2015 20:57:52 GMT -5
God Bless America...you have that right. So many take that for granted. I didn't say it wasn't easy. I said it was boring to have to pull away and do it to support the objective of the team. Yep...that was me. Hey now. I play engie and covie too. And if you want to label me a Rambo Med, that's fine, but let's define what a Rambo Med is. A Rambo Med is a guy that only frags and heals himself. He does not heal his team or die trying to revive his mates. The rambo med isn't concerned with team play or objective. You were free to disagree with me, well I respectfully disagree with you. I don't consider myself a Rambo Med. Every map, I usually have the most revives or get the "Best Medic" award. I die countless times running in and getting the revive. I usually revive first before shooting unless I am already engaged. I feel I am a very decent medic. Again, you really have a rather narrow impression of me and my game play. I have always been a proponent of eliminating adren on the servers (and don't get me started on Flamers and Adren!). And if you did prevent medics from healing themselves with their own packs, I would STILL BE A MEDIC. You may find that hard to believe, but I pride myself on getting that medic award each map. I am not as concerned with getting the highest frags. Now, when I do break from the group (or go "rambo" as you would put it), it is because I am trying to help the objective along. And no, I do not camp spawn on fuel dump. And no, I don't just run and heal. Unkillable you say? Ha. I die a lot. As for being a mortar myself? I don't like playing mortar. Same with Panzer or MG or Flamer. I think you might be missing the point I was trying to make here. I am not against mortars. I am against mortars using spawn as an unfair advantage. That is my opinion and really the discussion I wanted to initiate. I did not intend to have to defend my playing style or preference. Cheers. - Ace.
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Cmdo.Delta
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Post by Cmdo.Delta on Jan 25, 2015 22:27:27 GMT -5
You can be rambo med and help your team. When you run because you are about to die just to heal up and then come back, it's ramboing to me. Look, today I mortared and the only thing I got from this was less than 10 kills and 24 deaths. Not sure it was worthing I didnt even prevented the tank to pass the bridge. Some teams are doing a better job a taking mortar down. This map, lethal realllly wanted to get me just to annoy me... And he did a good job. I was just pointing that you never play mortar so you may not know how much we actually die without doing any kills. And trust me, happens alot more than you seems to think. Especially when someone decided you were his target. It becomes unplayable. I do it sometime myself and almost all the time, it ends up that the player mortaring just pick another class after 5 minutes just because his game is just all about dying to my bullets and doing nothing useful for his team. And sorry, didnt wanted to say you were not a good teammate only playing medic. I respect you as I respect everyone else around. But as some of us, you have to admit that you pick that class more often than the other classes. I do it myself. Doesnt mean I wont pick engineer when my team needs it and no one seems to want to play it. But if I had choice, wont be my first pick since I have no idea how to shoot with that rnade gun. I play the medic more often because I think it's such a game changing class when you are helping team (even if I was not able to heal myself with my own med pack). But honestly, when you 1 v 1 someone and you're about to lose, don't you try to escape and heal yourself as a medic? Something you may not doing with another class since even if you escape, you are low HP and an easy target to take down... When I'm not medic and doing 1 v 1, most of time I do it until one of us die just because if I dont kill him now and escape with low HP, i'm sure I'll die soon without being able to do anything better. Prefer to take a chance to win the fight and keep going on what I was trying to do (blow obj or anything else). Honestly, when you got the spawn time of enemy team, mortar is such a joke to take down. So much that now you need a permit to kill me when I mort... *whistling*
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BlaZeR
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Post by BlaZeR on Jan 25, 2015 23:06:55 GMT -5
Getting bored is not a valid reason , I understand the need to chase after mortars in certain games I do it myself and I'm really good doing it to the point I can annoy anyone, and that's about it .. it's part of the game decisions .. is it worth that you go 1v1 against a mortar and not help the team to take objectives?
Regarding the rules i highly doubt they will be changed/tweaked they are the main reason that the server is still up and people is still around.
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Daddy
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Post by Daddy on Jan 26, 2015 0:42:37 GMT -5
Ace, what is so hard about killing a mortar without killing/ damaging anyone else? I know you've played longer on this server than I have, but in my time here I have killed the mortar countless times as others have without once being warned or kicked for sk. Personally, I feel it's more the 'job' of a covert ops to sneak behind enemy lines and mess with mortar but I do it as engy all the time like you say you do as a medic. After all, this is an objective-oriented team-based game. I usually just ask the covie (if there is one) to keep the mortar busy. That frees me up to do my 'job' defusing dynos and playing defense. If I have to make a quick run over to opponents base to take out mortar, no big deal in my opinion.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2015 1:41:58 GMT -5
Hey guys, look, I just wanted to discuss the mortar in the spawn. I never said it was hard to kill, just annoying that you have to wait and hide and be careful to not get kicked trying to kill him. I never said my boredom was the reason you should change your rules either.
I am just stating my opinion. Allowing the mortar to camp in a protected spawn is an unfair advantage. I have played maps where the opposing team would keep an FO and a MED in the spawn area to defend the mortar from me. I can't shoot them but they can shoot me. How is that fair?
And yes, sometimes mortar is a thankless job. but on some maps, a skilled mortar can be the difference in winning or losing (protecting the dyno plant on the Oasis Gun or shelling the crap out of the tank on Goldrush). I am not advocating banning the mortar. I am advocating that if a mortar is camping in spawn, then that spawn should not be protected and anything goes. I feel the same about an FO camping in spawn, just sits there and lays down Artie and AirStrikes in safety. I know it isn't 100% safety, but it is an area where you usually have to wait for them to shoot first before you engage.
Anyway, fair enough. No one seems to want to post anything to support my stance on the subject. Okay, I must be the only one that feels this way.
- AKS.
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Post by tonofclay{QAW} on Jan 26, 2015 3:06:17 GMT -5
I can understand and appreciate yer points Ace
First off, on the FO and MED defending mortar from you and you not being able to shoot them, that is not true. The rules allow you to shoot at those players supporting the mortar (well FO supplying mortar anyways, I don't think meds really hang around just to heal mortar the whole time)
On to the other stuff .. when you say it's annoying you have to wait and kill them ... to me I think this is one of the best parts about mortar rather than the kills ... it distracts people on the other team to come find you instead of dealing with objectives and what not. Since I have been playing at this server I've noticed there are tons of people ready to jump at a chance to take out the mortar, it's almost like a game in itself. With that in mind, maybe just go help at the objective or something and not take it upon yourself alone as the sole person to save everyone from the evil mortar?
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Cmdo.Delta
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Post by Cmdo.Delta on Jan 26, 2015 7:47:33 GMT -5
2 people wasted to protect a mortar Well last game I played mort, the FO that was standing around never saved my life and Lethal never died crossing the spawn Then.. are you gonna start to complain at the unreachable mort that is not in the spawn just because he is camping in a spot you cant reach without facing the whole enemy team a.k.a. you're dead no matter what you try? Most of time, mort life depends on the team. If his team is stronger, he'll barely die. If his team is weaker, he'll give up playin mort just because someone will chase him down all day everyday. Again, it's teambased game and yes mort can be useful but not at the point I would say he was reaponsible of the victory. It can be a good teamate to have but again, wont be game changing if there is no engy to repair/defuse/etc.. and again, you admited yourself never playing mort so I still believe you have no idea what the life of a mort is made of. I saw a guy carrying his mort around and fighting with his thompson at same time. This guy was a boss. More annoying than the mort in spawn because you never knew where he was. But to do that, require to master mort weapon which most players will never reach cuz you have to know all the degree to shoot from any spot which require more than "some" practice. Hardest class to play IMO. Now if what would satisfy you would be to ask mort to camp in a place that is easy for you to kill him without being in danger... it's just awesome
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Daddy
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Post by Daddy on Jan 26, 2015 16:39:29 GMT -5
My apologies then. I guess I read into your previous quote something you didn't say/mean: I guess I would answer that the way delta and clay did... you (1 person) are causing the enemy to guard the mortar with 2 people. 3 vs 1 leaves your team at an advantage when going for the actual objective. I guess it's all in the way you look at it. I'm still trying to understand why you want the rule changed other than it's 'annoying'. Many things about this game are 'annoying' such as being engy and fighting through 3 or 4 enemies to get to the tank, only to be taken out by an air strike or a stray landmine and no med around to revive you. People complain about rnades being annoying and state their reasons why, such as it takes no skill, etc. But that's another discussion. LOL. As a soldier mortaring you are the most defenseless person in the game. When you are mortaring, you have very little protection, unless you can get up fast and do a quick draw. Just as you said, this is only my opinion as well. I just don't see any reason for a rule change based on what you've said, or maybe I am just not understanding your position clearly.
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Post by mcbain{QAW} on Jan 28, 2015 18:22:32 GMT -5
Hey! I have a thread for these things: Suggestion BoxDrop your idea in there and someone will get back to you.
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Post by SpaceAge_Pimp{QAW} on Jan 30, 2015 2:16:19 GMT -5
I remember way back when, when i tried to mortar the mortarer....ererer in the axis oasis spawn and got reeeeamed for it!!!! Almost broke my never-been-warned streak with that! Mortar is an easy kill, and its worth protecting the spawn rules for such an overall minor attacker class. I get what what you're saying but one must take their chances if that kill is so important. I personally don't bother with that hunt anymore.
Can't have a 'greater good' without some cons unfortch..
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2015 20:49:54 GMT -5
I think if you guys didnt ban use of rnades in the spawn then mortars are easy to kill. I know that I "may" damage or kill others maybe if they next to a mortar they should be fair game too. I know f/o feeding are fair game. It used to be okay to use rnade to kill mortars in spawn then the "powers that be" changed things or just started to enforce what may have been a rule before. Read the original rules and there is nothing specificaly forbidding a rnade killing a mortar in the spawn.
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Post by Capt. Ronski on Feb 12, 2015 22:09:14 GMT -5
I vote for the if mortaring from spawn then its fair game on SK. AT the very least a nade would be allowed then. my 2 Cents
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Post by SCOUT on Feb 12, 2015 22:16:38 GMT -5
I vote for the if mortaring from spawn then its fair game on SK. AT the very least a nade would be allowed then. my 2 Cents If mortaring from spawn, then SK is already allowed. Using a splash damage weapon like a nade is not. This is because of the danger of collateral damage which would be SK.
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Post by Slaughter{QAW} on Feb 12, 2015 23:40:30 GMT -5
It used to be okay to use rnade to kill mortars in spawn then the "powers that be" changed things or just started to enforce what may have been a rule before. Read the original rules and there is nothing specificaly forbidding a rnade killing a mortar in the spawn. The rules have always stated that splash damage weapons in the spawn were not allowed. That rule has never changed and never will change.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2015 18:53:05 GMT -5
I see that the rules have had a major update and made things much clearer. It still sucks when you good at the rnade as I am. Like now that the upper room is no longer a red area on Fuel dump. I did read later that still dont want us shooting from the door. Hey you guys have any problem with sneaking in and needling a snip or two? I love doing that just for fun.
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Cmdo.Delta
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Post by Cmdo.Delta on Feb 16, 2015 23:57:25 GMT -5
I see that the rules have had a major update and made things much clearer. It still sucks when you good at the rnade as I am. Like now that the upper room is no longer a red area on Fuel dump. I did read later that still dont want us shooting from the door. Hey you guys have any problem with sneaking in and needling a snip or two? I love doing that just for fun. The upper room is still a red area and will always be... because if it's not a red area, allies will camp here all day long and axis will never be able to leave their spawn alive... since it's sk area, no splash dmg weapon allowed like nade, mort, flamer... indeed if someone is sniping we could not blame you for takin them down but nothing else... no shooting at other axis that reach the top of bunker stairs and wanna leave using this door.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2015 19:35:56 GMT -5
Cmdo.Delta you need to look at the new updated red area maps cause the upper room is no longer pictured. I just checked again to make sure. Put they do say we cant camp there in the written rules.
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Post by Slaughter{QAW} on Feb 22, 2015 20:36:40 GMT -5
Honestly that room was never a red area room which is why we can throw nades in there. Shooting in the door and camping is prohibited though.
Edit: To be clear I should state that the room was never considered a red area (prior to update).
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Cmdo.Delta
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Post by Cmdo.Delta on Feb 22, 2015 21:05:04 GMT -5
Honestly that room was never a red area room which is why we can throw nades in there. Shooting in the door and camping is prohibited though. But we just changed the rules to no longer allow nades in this room.... will tell h0ney to make it clearer on the rule pages... Robmadman, the upper room is red on that picture... If you dont see it... well.. there is nothing else I can do for you.. :S And since this is a red area, nades are not allowed in there... only killing campers (Fops or covie)... cuz if there is no exception, general rules apply... and general rules say no splash weapon (including flamer) in red areas...
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Post by Slaughter{QAW} on Feb 22, 2015 21:19:35 GMT -5
How far out does that red go? It doesn't look like it extends across the whole room to the exit...just saying.
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Cmdo.Delta
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Post by Cmdo.Delta on Feb 22, 2015 21:25:12 GMT -5
Well we gonna make sure and update ruoes if needed. Was asking honey cuz i have no clue but to me, sounded like it was whole room. Lets make sure so we argue having all the information
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Post by H0neY {QAW} on Feb 22, 2015 22:02:43 GMT -5
the upper room, Axis, on fuel dump main gate is not a spawn, so it doesn't belong in the spawn boundary pictures. besides, i don't have a screenshot of it as there was never one to begin with. it's an exit, clearly stated in "exceptions:
"The room to the left of the main gate at the dump is one of two Axis exits. Axis players often call arty or snipe from the windows. Allied players may shoot the sniper or FDOPS from the ground in defense but MAY NOT shoot into the room from the doorway at the top.
it is an exception because it IS an exit, not a spawn, but the spawnkill rules apply to it. allies cannot shoot into that room without an axis FDOPs, mortar, ect taking offensive action and allies intend to kill ONLY that/those player(s) taking offensive action(s).
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Post by hoff{QAW} on May 28, 2015 16:14:54 GMT -5
*Sneaks in* Sorry to revive the thread, but, as an occasional mortar, I think -as any other class- a mortar, med, engy, etc, cannot change the odds of the game... but a player can, at least, delay the accomplishment of an oposite team's objective. I know about mortaring since a couple of years when Oz did an exceptional manual for mortaring (which is why he sells me for cookies, haha). I remember that Phobos was a pretty good mortar too, and there must be many others much better. I 'm not very good at it, but I think, considering the kind of players that use the mortar, none of them would mind if you send them out of spawn to mortar... maybe those who are just trying the class out. In my personal use of mortar: I do it just while/when/for smoking, so I don't really mind. Just saying.
Greatings, PHB
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Post by JudgmentDay on Feb 13, 2016 0:59:32 GMT -5
Sorry guys, but I think I will weigh in anyways...I don't know if any rule has been decided on. I've played many games on Axis where the mortar hides in the Axis spawn, along with an FO. I can see Ace's point, that if there is no spawn killing, then mortars shouldn't be allowed to hide in there...it makes them completely invincible. If they are allowed to hide in there, then opposing team players shouldn't be warned for sneaking in the spawn to kill the mortar and FO...providing that's their only target. Now if they tried to kill the spawning players, that's another whole issue in itself and definitely should be warned against. I play engy 90% of the time, covie the other 10%, just because that's what I'm good at. (Good??? Well, I'm BETTER at it than the other jobs LOL). But really, I think Ace did have some good points. Oh...hey Cake, gives me a new game to play if you're mortaring.
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Post by SCOUT on Feb 13, 2016 7:10:21 GMT -5
Opposing players are not warned for going into spawn to kill mortars, and or the FO feeding them with ammo.
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Post by JudgmentDay on Feb 13, 2016 12:53:24 GMT -5
Thanks Scout
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