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Post by Capt. Ronski on Jan 6, 2017 21:30:29 GMT -5
Today was witnessed on Oasis at 2nd allied spawn, a qaw admin was seen purposely pushing the allied mortarer off the small wall by allied 2nd spawn. Last I saw he even put a dyno on the mortar so as to when the mortar went off, it blows up in the face of the mortarer. I mentioned in chat about or so of why are you doing that, that's not right or so. No ramifications were done at all and was OK by the admins in attendance. While in pm mode I was told it was okay to do so by another high ranking admin because the player being pushed around had done it before!? Seriously?If the pubber is a problem then use your kick or ban powers to the player, but not this! Pushing an allied mortar around when they shoot, all it does is throw off the shot and very easily can and does land in the axis spawn, in turn axis gets upset and of course throws off the shot by the allied player nevertheless who was trying to help the allies. Admins are supposed to toe the line and as the banner text say respect all players and admins. But doing this throws that all out the window! By the way a player we see many times XOmong name or so did the exact same thing yesterday, same situation to another mortarer yesterday and was eventually kicked. When everyone sees an admin doing this we are all supposed to uphold the rules here but when the rules get broken by an admin you guys lose complete respect you all have achieved. I wholeheartedly disagree with what was seen and done today no matter if the player had been a problem before. If a player got kicked for rules violation doing that before as I was told, from what I had seen he was definitely not a problem that whole map today. If a player breaks the rules accidentally without knowing qaw rules, we would expect them to know better on return to not do so again. I truly know you guys feel imo I can be a trouble maker definitely at times, but this had to be reported! I assume also this will probably be moved to the qaw only forums. First time I had seen and admin do this in my six plus years here. Disappointed
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Post by oZ{QAW} on Jan 6, 2017 21:52:09 GMT -5
Dear Ronski, First of all, thank you for considering me a “High Ranking admin”. Trust me, I am not. I am in charge of checking how clean toilets are after another admin cleans them. I tried to give you some background into this during game play, but obviously you didn’t understand. This player you are so eagerly defending has been banned (yes banned) at least 12 times by me and another number of times by other admins, as well as kicked and sometimes even muted. He has not been banned for pushing anyone, but for SK. He does it with mortar, nades, arty, airstrikes etc. I even banned him (again) shortly after you talked to me for insulting in Spanish. Sometimes being an admin it’s not about going the honorable way and keeping your hands clean. Sometimes it takes harsh actions (at least in my opinion)and getting your hands a bit dirty. If a troll keeps coming into the server to disturb our peace (and that includes everyone who plays here) I’ll do anything to keep him out, even if that is annoying him until he doesn’t come back. I know you’ll say “go for the IP ban” but I don’t really want to risk accidentally keeping other players from South America away because of this “poor guy”. As far as I’m concerned I’ll keep pushing him and slapping him when he comes back (he will probably be back tomorrow, if not later today). Hopefully one day he will either understand he can’t SK here or he will just not come back. oZ PS. I accused myself of admin abuse with the highest ranking member in the clan already, but you can do so as well.
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Post by mcbain{QAW} on Jan 6, 2017 22:44:07 GMT -5
Sounds like a horrible player. Just give me ban powers and I will take care of it.
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Post by SCOUT on Jan 7, 2017 0:45:28 GMT -5
Yeah! What Oz said.
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Post by Aelfwen {QAW} on Jan 7, 2017 1:46:57 GMT -5
I can understand how it would appear, seeing an admin pushing a mortar around the map. It would be much quicker and easier to kick or ban them in the short term.
What you witnessed today was reserved for special repeat offenders who don't give up. The server today is populated by 80% good honest people looking to have some fun and 20% hackers and trolls who return repeatedly with various names. Some of those people have been banned 30+ times by a great variety of admins. The choice is to ip ban greater parts of the population to try to catch 1 or 2 guys, constantly ban and recheck ips of everyone coming and going from the server, or try to annoy them so they no longer want to visit the server if even for a little while.
What Oz did today was abusive and he would be the first to tell you so. I will also tell you that I am guilty of abuse for the same reason. Right or wrong, it is intended to keep the server a better place to play not to ruin people's fun.
I think the bottom line is Oz would have much rather been playing the game than pushing some guy around. The guys work hard to keep the server a good place to be and the chat is always full with those who are on the lookout for asshats who try to ruin the game for everyone else.
Now given what you saw, you had every right to post this here. And you should feel free to post again if you see things taking place. This should by no means ever be a common occurrence, and since you said it is the first time in six years, hopefully that is the case. I can understand the disappointment you must have felt and may still feel given the methods, and while I do not wish to encourage it, I support Oz's actions. I appreciate you looking out for the server as well, and am sorry this affected your game negatively.
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Post by Slaughter{QAW} on Jan 7, 2017 11:15:52 GMT -5
Just my 2 cents as well but I have participated in such actions with a troll that would not/could not get it. It is an extreme action but a necessary evil sometimes. I'm not sure if you remember a player that went by the name google but he was a great example of one that would just keep coming back and ruin the game for everyone. Although my favorite thing to do is to ban and re ban it can get tiresome if someone continues and like Oz said, a blanket IP ban can be a little harsh and cause others not to be able to join. So instead we just made it a miserable game for that player and he/she never came back. I understand where you are coming from but to say you have lost complete respect without knowing the whole story is kind of extreme in itself, especially when it comes to one of our admins that upholds integrity, respect, and honesty in this game. It's not easy running a clan or admining as not everyone will be pleased all the time. I fully support our admins for doing what they do to keep the server running while some of us take a leave of absence. Words can not express what this clan and it's regulars really mean to me and I truly hope you can understand why such actions were taken.
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Post by Relevance{QAW} on Jan 8, 2017 8:46:27 GMT -5
I just want to say.....
Ronski did not know the whole story behind this player. And as I said before this player is lucky nooo blessed to still be playing here. If he chooses to play here and act the same, then he should be re-banned or treated as such...This is a game, and I still believe it shouldn't be taken too seriously under certain circumstances. I understand we are all admins, and have another roll to play besides just playing... But this guy is past the point of no return. We are doing him a favour by letting him play here. Im sure he can deal with a little fun and games. Apparently all he was saying was PEACEEE, and he didnt want to fight no more as this was going on. Seems like a improvement to me.. I can only hope.
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Post by Capt. Ronski on Jan 8, 2017 11:23:44 GMT -5
You have made it perfectly legal now for anyone to push mortar’s, place dynos on the mortar. We know this is a fairly common problem since the pubber who was getting abused had done so before, I too have witnessed others doing it many times, been the victim of a teammate doing this many times and was aided by the admins here to get them stop- thank you. Maybe the player who got pushed by the admin(you know who) – not Lurch/Oz, did it to me as well, but I surely wouldn’t want the player to be given this same abuse.
Next time this happens and we know it will, admins lost their right to get the pubber to stop since admins are allowed to do it.
The decisions to do this practice imo were and are very poor. As admins you’re expected to uphold your own rules and not expected to break them whenever you decide it's ok no matter if a pubber has a history. When as the ET server admin in TeamJudge I never did, nor do I recall any of my subordinate admins break any rules, if they did, we would have a chat at least up to revoking admin rights.
When you push a mortar around, the mortar target changes, what will admins do when the mortar shell lands in the opposing teams red zones? They really can’t !Warn the mortarer as it wasn’t their fault, but that admin should !Warn themselves. One can get multi-kills or kill the engineer and if the opposing team is rushing to defuse and gets SK'd, you just ruined the whole map with this poor practice.
You have gone against and broken your own rules – “10. You may not sabotage your own team to further your own experience or because you do not like what another player is doing. Defusing others dynamite, purposefully running over land mines in order to set your own, or blocking mortar units, etc. are not permitted.”
If you have problem pubber who keeps coming back and playing, have the decency to let the fellow teammates about this before you did some unusual actions. When I spoke up in open or team chat about seeing the rule being broken I mentioned a couple times something along the lines of *** what-why are you doing this! (or so) and I wasn't told in chat-pm why it was going on, only upon pming Lurch minutes later was when I was told the pubber had a history.
Ban by guid, and the regular way, yes I am very familiar with people having to go get a new etkey, unplugging their modems to get a new IP as I have had to ban a number of people before. Why is it so hard to just use the !Ban command? A lot easier than this abusive practice to be sure. In Team Judge we had an ET server for several years from the outset of ET till about three years ago. I too had to ban by ip prefix and many other admins did as well for several years, we didn’t do it all the time, but for a multitude of returnees we did and we never did have an accidental ban.
Do re-think this never to do this practice again. You're breaking your own rules your(we) are trying to uphold. When the frustrated pubber says and we all know they do-> they are getting admin abuse and that admins can do it, they really do now have a leg to stand on! I do hope you won’t have to add asterisks to your rules for- *All are expected to abide by these rules, but if an admin occasionally decides to break a rule, it’s ok.
Again I know some of you think I can be a pest, but I do what I can to uphold the server rules and report when I see rules broken.
I have put forth the time and effort to show the very valid reasons to stop doing this.
Just continue to ban accordingly even if you have to do it multiple times and not use this again very poor practice, thank you!
Your partner frag, Ronski
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Post by hoff{QAW} on Jan 8, 2017 12:09:36 GMT -5
First, I want to state that I've been involved in trying to speak politely, warning, kicking and banning the player in question, so this concerns me too. Besides, I want to clarify that what follows is my own opinion, and doesn't represent necesarily the philosophy of the clan. Nevertheless, I think it'll help you and others understand what happened.
As you have read before, Ronski, we all already understand what you are implying, that's why you've been given an explanation. Furthermore, I think it's because you are a loyal reg that you are given such an extense explanation, not to be rude but, at this point, you should easily understand that what happens is not a "mood of a member" but "a decision by a member", and all we do (good or bad) it's in the best interest of the clan, server and, of course, sportsmanship. BUT let me put it this way so you can grasp what might have happened here- all this is what in politics and military is called "state of exception" (explained in extent by Carl Schmitt) in which everyone (in this case one player) loses his right in behalf of the greater good. Players have suffer from sk by the "poor player that's being pushed by an admin", and I would bet my hands you yourself have complined to some members via pm about the same guy that is now in question (you just didn't know) cause I can register his first ban date 07/12/2015 (yes, we have been giving this guy chances for more than 20 months cause, belive it or not, in between bans, he has just been explained, warned and kicked over and over again, even trying diferent languages). No rules have been broken by any member cause in state of exceptions rules are determined by those in charge. Those who take the great responsability to carry on this kind of actions have my respect, even if I agree or not, cause they have to answear for their actions, which has been extensibly done and, considering you've recieved explanations even by our Higher Ranked Officers, you should get that this actions have support and might even be practiced in the future if we get another player like this one.
PS: I want to remark that "state of exception" is not written in any section of our rules... nor we do it as a standarized practice, and I want to add I just used it as a metaphore to explained what happened. In real life, state of exceptions end, sometimes, in people shot at just because they were walking the street in times when they shouldn't... in game, they get pushed around.
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Post by tonofclay{QAW} on Jan 8, 2017 15:01:28 GMT -5
What I think you're missing in quoting the server rules is this part:
"These are general guidelines with respect to managing the server. As with any live, dynamic game environment, not all eventualities can be covered. In the absence of clear direction from these guidelines we depend on the judgment of our members and admins to “fill in the gaps” for unusual, real time or unique game instances that arise. "
In the case of this guy who was playing mortar at the time, I'd say he is considered a unique instance, in that warns, perm bans, etc, have shown no effect on deterring this player from breaking the rules. Just look at the posts in this thread to see how many times this guy has been given chances despite repeated warns and bans, both temporary and permanent. That he is not breaking any rules in that particular moment does not negate the fact that he has repeatedly circumvented his permanent bans.
As such, those of us 'in charge' so to speak have taken to other more extreme actions to discourage this particular player from continuing to play at the server, as the general guidelines no longer apply to him.
It's silly to think that actions by QAW members somehow would now give everyone the right to mess with any player at any time without repercussion. For one, I've been messing with this guy in various ways for months and have not seen cause any other players to go wild and start abusing all their teammates under the guise that it's somehow acceptable now. But as an example, when a police officer needs to respond to an incident, puts on his lights, and starts speeding down the highway, does this mean now everyone can slap a light on their car and go as fast as they want? No. The truth is, as in real life, the people in charge are afforded particular rights in extreme cases such that they may be of better help to the community.
I for one will continue to harass this player as long as he continues to join this server. An occasional mortar hitting the spawn is far less bothersome to me than allowing someone who has shown absolutely no respect towards the server to enjoy playing here without any repercussions.
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Post by SCOUT on Jan 8, 2017 15:42:34 GMT -5
Please. Don’t come in here trying to dictate server management to us. Or instruct us on what QAW may and may not enforce going forward; according to you. Who the hell do you think you are? It was made clear that what happened with this nuisance player was outside the norm of our daily server administration. Your idea that based on this exception to our normal approach that somehow going forward all “pubbers” are now to be treated this way is comical. You’re looking at this incident through a soda straw. You seem considerably butt hurt and passionate. Bad combo for sure. Here’s a news flash; you’re not privy to everything going on in the server or the clan. Therefore don’t try to inject yourself in matters you aren’t equipped to handle. What may appear as contradictory to clan rules, or your sensibilities, might be unorthodox actions taken for exceptional reasons. QAW is under no obligation to run things by players prior to taking action. Sorry if you’ve been led to believe this. You were given responses from several members as to your concerns. Our admin and members have a range of actions at their disposal to deal with conflicts on the server (<-direct quote from server rules). We’re not a bunch of automatons without discretion, so sometimes you might be left in the dark. Just embrace it.
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Post by Slaughter{QAW} on Jan 8, 2017 19:14:37 GMT -5
This is what, 1 incident that you have seen in over 6 years here? Given that players can now circumvent a perma-ban in under 5 minutes it makes it difficult and tiresome to continue with these special cases to coddle them. You may not agree with our actions but I guarantee you that you are the only one to have complained about the action vs. the results that we get from them. It is a necessary evil in rare cases and it seems to work. I would rather explain this action than have a troll clear our server because we are helpless to do anything about it. I think the thing that you seem to be confusing yourself with is the fact that WE ARE NOT TEAM JUDGE and we definitely do things our own way. You take pride in being a "trouble maker" yet expect us to admin to your approval, how does that work? Once again, we can not please everyone and this incident seems to be your unhappiness but prior to this our actions like this in previous cases has never caused anyone to think that they are able to break the rules nor has anyone ever questioned the method because everyone was aware of the asshatery that was happening at the moment. This does not cause chaos or anarchy on the server and quite frankly if you so adamantly disagree with our actions there is a simple solution, move on. You have been given plenty of explanations as to why this is done and seen approval from founding members but still continue to reprimand us for running our server in a way that we see fit, again we have been at this for over 12 years and our methods work for us.
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Post by Porridge{QAW} on Jan 11, 2017 8:22:13 GMT -5
You have made it perfectly legal now for anyone to push mortar’s, place dynos on the mortar. We know this is a fairly common problem since the pubber who was getting abused had done so before, I too have witnessed others doing it many times, been the victim of a teammate doing this many times and was aided by the admins here to get them stop- thank you. Maybe the player who got pushed by the admin(you know who) – not Lurch/Oz, did it to me as well, but I surely wouldn’t want the player to be given this same abuse. Next time this happens and we know it will, admins lost their right to get the pubber to stop since admins are allowed to do it. The decisions to do this practice imo were and are very poor. As admins you’re expected to uphold your own rules and not expected to break them whenever you decide it's ok no matter if a pubber has a history. When as the ET server admin in TeamJudge I never did, nor do I recall any of my subordinate admins break any rules, if they did, we would have a chat at least up to revoking admin rights. When you push a mortar around, the mortar target changes, what will admins do when the mortar shell lands in the opposing teams red zones? They really can’t !Warn the mortarer as it wasn’t their fault, but that admin should !Warn themselves. One can get multi-kills or kill the engineer and if the opposing team is rushing to defuse and gets SK'd, you just ruined the whole map with this poor practice. You have gone against and broken your own rules – “10. You may not sabotage your own team to further your own experience or because you do not like what another player is doing. Defusing others dynamite, purposefully running over land mines in order to set your own, or blocking mortar units, etc. are not permitted.”If you have problem pubber who keeps coming back and playing, have the decency to let the fellow teammates about this before you did some unusual actions. When I spoke up in open or team chat about seeing the rule being broken I mentioned a couple times something along the lines of *** what-why are you doing this! (or so) and I wasn't told in chat-pm why it was going on, only upon pming Lurch minutes later was when I was told the pubber had a history. Ban by guid, and the regular way, yes I am very familiar with people having to go get a new etkey, unplugging their modems to get a new IP as I have had to ban a number of people before. Why is it so hard to just use the !Ban command? A lot easier than this abusive practice to be sure. In Team Judge we had an ET server for several years from the outset of ET till about three years ago. I too had to ban by ip prefix and many other admins did as well for several years, we didn’t do it all the time, but for a multitude of returnees we did and we never did have an accidental ban. Do re-think this never to do this practice again. You're breaking your own rules your(we) are trying to uphold. When the frustrated pubber says and we all know they do-> they are getting admin abuse and that admins can do it, they really do now have a leg to stand on! I do hope you won’t have to add asterisks to your rules for- *All are expected to abide by these rules, but if an admin occasionally decides to break a rule, it’s ok. Again I know some of you think I can be a pest, but I do what I can to uphold the server rules and report when I see rules broken. I have put forth the time and effort to show the very valid reasons to stop doing this. Just continue to ban accordingly even if you have to do it multiple times and not use this again very poor practice, thank you! Your partner frag, Ronski You do understand that these were extenuating circumstances, right? Or is that concept too complicated for you to comprehend? "When you push a mortar around, the mortar target changes" <--- also thanks for this. I might have to make this my sig line.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2017 20:01:04 GMT -5
No wai bro!
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Post by Capt. Ronski on Jan 17, 2017 12:56:43 GMT -5
I purposely did not reply immediately for you all to to have your say. Relevance far as saying “Ronski did not know the whole story” That is so very true, I also mentioned how if the admins decide to disrupt a team with similar actions, it would be a very prudent move on the admins part to let the rest of us know. When it’s done, that means two players on a team are taken out of the playing team. For the rest of us on that team who are trying to win the map as a team, we are being handicapped. When I asked the reason why I did not get an explanation while it was happening. I PM'd Lurch as to why as I know he is the uber rule guru to be sure. Yes I agree it was the first time I had seen this happen, but it was pointed out in the statements apparently it also has been done so before several times. Again let us know, ok Far as yes QAW is not Team Judge, you are correct and admin the QAW way. Far as Team Judge this is where the bulk of my years of admin experience has been and what I have to go on as the rules we used were rather similar. I most definitely am not trying to dictate the rules here as those are done in the QAW member community. Essentially the root of it all was that I was to put it bluntly I was quite disappointed to see this happening by an admin. I have always truly seen the QAW admins do a good job for many years, I have done what I can as well as so many other pubbers have done as well to bring up rule violations to the admins. Porridge – I really don’t appreciate being talked down to, way your reply is put is insulting and that I am not too bright. Personally I’d rather put this thread to bed, admins have stated their actions and why, Ok lets all, as I, just want to continue to soldier on with y’all on the server!
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