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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2007 19:56:23 GMT -5
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Post by BichKilla{QAW} on Jul 18, 2007 22:48:43 GMT -5
This guy is being ignorantly simplistic. Almost every fault he finds in the reasoning behind evolution could be found in religion as he states that evolution is also a religion, so i give him that. The fact is, humans can much more easily understand time frames in terms of life span, IE. 100's and 1000's of years. It is very hard for a human to comprehend the idea if 1 million years and what can take place over that time frame. The idea of a species changing over 100 years is absurd but the idea of a species changing over 1 million years is almost as incomprehensible for humans. Species change over time on earth is a scientific fact, simple as that. As far as the big bang and the beginning of life on earth and the start of the universe, who knows for sure. Could be God.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2007 23:19:16 GMT -5
God could be real or not, i try to stay in the middle of this war of religion, with evolution, the reason the timespan is so long, is becuase life is so complicated, we are talking trillions upon trillions of chemical reactions. Now with creationism, god created it all, so like you said, it is easier to think that the earth and the rest of the universe being created in six days, rather than billions of years but the most simplistic reason is not always the right answer. Like i said previously though i try not to sway to one side but i tend to lean over to evolution.
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Post by J_Bourne{QAW} on Jul 19, 2007 0:25:34 GMT -5
I don't need to watch the video, I'm sure its full of crap. And this coming from a guy who wholeheartedly believes in Intelligent Design (though not the "the universe is actually a few thousand years old" bs.)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2007 1:07:42 GMT -5
Well, its not all full of crap, it was tollerable and it did shed some light on the whole evolution and bigbang theory.
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Post by Corvus{QAW} on Jul 19, 2007 3:45:00 GMT -5
Wheter evolutionism or creationism is plausible or not is just something to believe. Their competition with eachother about truth doesn't make it more believable to me. There is no full picture in which u can comfort yourself. Some cant live with this thought. Priests, imams and rabbi's will help them. Since religion tend to has an answer to everything, and explains the questions of the troubled minds of all times. Try this one: "where does the universe stop, why and whats next to it?" With the Tora, Bible or Qur'an you have to extract information to get half answers. So, a human activity on scriptures made by humans to get a human answer. And the video was entertaining. When somebody tells about the lies of the other one i have reason to doubt. He uses the word stupid too many times. He only cracks the variation of theory, which is the dynamics of science. He doesnt explain nothing about the same topic with any kind of proof of his own. Personally i dont care about proof about anything. But when you refer to the truth with a holy book in your hand, you have to question that same book in the way you crack the other. According to the methodology, which everybody uses in their arguments about for or against theory, no scripture, nomather how holy considered, will survive as true. as for ET if you spawnkill and i have a demo its a fact for the community if you spawnkill and i dont have a demo its still true and maybe i can find a companion for this truth These trics with thinking and language are often used in discussions about evolution and creationism, pro or anti. All things and thinking can be true, but i see no reason to give that truth to somebody i have never seen
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Post by DaBastard on Jul 19, 2007 8:10:52 GMT -5
o i jes had to get in on this one. In one of my biz, I collect fossils and gemstones. There is no doubt in my mind about evolution. You can see what Darwin seen if you open your eyes sans bias. Reading the fossil evidence is one of the Greatest Stories ever told. Maybe 'God' is responsible for some sort of 'lifeforce' in the universe, but the beginnings, appearance and evolution of life is purely a chemical and physical process. They have taken meteorites that contained organic molecules, powdered the subtance, add water, heat, maybe some electricity (static ie:lighteneing). Leave this soup to some time and protiens will assemble. Elements and molecules also will have a tendency to 'wrap themselve in a bubble' (precursor to a cell wall). Did you realize that mud can 'breathe'? They have observed 'respiration' in hills/mud ponds. Nothing alive in there, but dirt hill will take air in and exhaust it. Damn amazing in my book. Life is virulant, it'll take hold anywhere and EVERYWHERE it gets a chance. The comment about our short life spans is right on the nose. We miss out on all of Mother Nature's Big Attractions because our life spans are so fleeting. You wanna see a REAL Tsunami??? stick around for a couple million years, Ma Nature will make you jaw drop! And the 'best' explaination/theory I've heard for 'what's there where the universe stops' is: more universes. Our universe is curved, like our planet. In the early days, man couldn't see over the horizon (here be dragons). Man assumed there 'was nothing there'. When we evolved the technology to go 'where the dragons were', we seen more of our own planet. We cannot see any further back to the Big Bang than about 300,000 yrs after it. Simple reason, it was waaaayyyyy too hot for even LIGHT to form. Therefore we will never 'SEE' the Big Bang. And I think if we could 'see over that horizon (curved horizon), we would be able to see other universes. Current thinking that each universe also comes with it's own set of physical laws, and therefore some universes will be completely devoid of any life, or light maybe, or ... possibilities are endless. To argue creationism, the tack is to speak louder than the opposing side, To argue evolution is to look, listen, postulate, and realize how those pieces come together, no yelling involved. The 'Truth' is there for all to see, the 'Untruth' must be 'drummed' into the masses. my apologies to the religious sect, but more humans have been killed 'in the name of religion' than all the wars put together. hmmm,...sobering thought... The church first explained away fossils as 'planted there by the Devil to make you question your faith, true believers will ignore these ruses.' It was a 12yr old girl in England who finally wised-up the 'elders' to what the fossil record was truely trying to reveal. At one time, when fossilized natauloids/coiled shells were found, the were explained away as the snakes that St. Chistopher had chased outta England an turned to stone. Back then some people even carved snake heads on the ends of the shells to convince the point. You can still find some of those around today. touchy subject in most cases, hope this doesn't start a backlash, jes had to to me 2c in
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Post by J_Bourne{QAW} on Jul 19, 2007 11:10:26 GMT -5
My view has always been this: If the big bang was created by a tinny bit of energy or by a piece of matter "infinitely small and infinitely dense," if that thing caused the reaction that then created everything, what then created it? Now here's the killer, I really do believe in the Big Bang AND evolution. The problem is in filling that very last detail, something can not come from nothing. Hell, even the empty space within which it was located would have had to be created before it could exist anywhere. Of course the same can be said about God, could God have always existed? Where did God come from? What created God? What created the thing that created God? They can all be fought, effectively in my opinion, with the very same argument. The key is faith, in one or the other. I believe in a higher power, thats my story and I'm sticking to it. btw, ...Stephen Hawking (arguably the greatest physicist of our, or any, time) agrees with me.
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Post by Zohar{QAW} on Jul 19, 2007 13:43:31 GMT -5
The theory of evolution proves itself. Evolution is what drives all progress. If there were no evolution, then we would always be satisfied with the "god created it" answer, as we were for many thousands of years. But, at some point, people started saying "wait a sec here, there may be more to this". Look at it this way - if we dont evolve, then we are by definition unchanging. The fact that we DO change, that we stopped blindly believing the old religion based explanations long enough to question them and attempt a scientific explanation IS the proof of evolution!
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Post by DaBastard on Jul 19, 2007 14:54:10 GMT -5
(whatta great topic! ) And note, it wasn't a 'tinny bit of energy' sitting there at the beginning, it was a HUGE!!!! amount of energy there. More than you can ever imagine! Einstein taught us that matter and energy are interchangable (E=mc2). Matter (coffetables, books, fish, stars, trees, humans, etc.) are only 'storage batteries' holding huge amounts of energy. I heard once that there is enough energy in an average book to power a locomotive around the world. Nuclear energy in the state it is today is fission (rotting elements, they give off a bit of radiation energy, and decay into a smaller (nucleus) element. I believe Uranium turns into/rots to lead) What goes on in the sun is fusion. Taking 2 hydrogen atoms, and because the sun has so much matter (read->gravity), the atoms at the center of the sun are 'pushed together' to fuse into a helium atom. A helium atom is not made up of ALL the parts of the 2 hydrogen atoms. What is now missing has turned into energy, HUGE amounts of energy. The strongest 'forces' in the universe is the strong and weak nuclear forces. These are what keep us together. We are mostly made up of 'space', but due to the nuclear attractions, we can't walk through walls. This is the force that the sun overcomes, due to its high mass/gravity. Imagine the pressure (for pushing) and heat (to excite the atoms, they move more 'vigerously) required to do this.... gah! (there is a point here , jes have to lay the groundwork), Now, a few more tidbits of info to go with this. Of all the 'stuff' we can see in the universe (trees, rocks, oceans, stars, galaxies, nebulea), it only amounts to about 5-7% of the total 'mass' of the universe! 95% of what's out there we have no idea what it is!!! (in come Dark matter, Dark energy theories). and BTW, when you look up into the sky at night, most of what you see, are galaxies (each containing approx. 100 billion stars, and there are 100 billion galaxies (billion = 1000 million for u Brits ) ). The only stars you will see are those in the Milky Way Galaxy, ie: what you see along the Milky Way when you look up, otherwise, each little dot in the sky = 100 billion stars! (wowzerz!). (remember, all these only = 5% what's there!). So if you can fathom that amount of 'stuff', and then realize how much energy would be there if was all put through the formula E=mc2, it's impossible to imagine the amount of energy it would be because our puny little lives and experiences give us no reference to compare to. So alllll that energy from the 5% of observable universe, PLUS the other 95% of whatever it may be, all sqeezed down to a size smaller! than an atom, and you have what was there at the beginning of the Big Bang. (us mere mortals cannot comprehend that amount of energy, we can only give it a 'meaningless' number/value.) So to tackle the question 'Where did the Big Bang come from? what was there? was there nothing? something? There are theories that Black Holes in this universe may be the Big Bangs of other universes. Basically our universe and other universes are a mangled twisted knot within themselves. You have to get into thinking of 'other dimensions' to get a handle on it. There is the Big Bang Theory, Inflation Theory, String Theory and 'M' Theory. All try to explain the same thing. I like the Big Bang theory, but like it has been pointed out, there are problems with it. Many in fact. And unfortunatly, it is so widley accepted that it hinders research into other possibilities. Any researcher that comes up with a 'new' theory to anything is usually considered a quack/crackpot (Darwin, Galileo, etc.). But sooo many of those 'crackpots' have proven out in the past. I believe we don't have the 'true' answer yet. I believe it will be many centuries before we do. Only understanding what 5% of the Universe is I don't think gives us enough data to come up with the Grand Unified theory (Einstien + Quantum Mechs. in one equation). The 'real' answer I'm sure would sound 'foolish' to us now if we heard it. The future will be interesting fersher, Another note on Evolution. We all see today how quickly the planet can change, and the amount of change over eons is huge. What does not change, dies out. We are here today, and not Neaderthals or Java man because we could adapt more readily than those 2 species. Neaderthals had the physical advantage over us, but homo sapiens were better at adapting (read->evolving). Same in ANYTHING today, business, relationships, species, etc. To survive, you must be able to adapt/evolve. And jes another crack at the religion thing. At one time, by church doctrine, the Earth was the center of the Universe. Then the Sun was the center of the Universe, and finally, the Sun as only the center of our own solar system. The same Bible existed throughout this. At first, you were convicted (usually death) of heresy. Galileo spent the last of his life under house arrest from the church (he was friends with the Pope, he got off easy) because he had the Sun at the center. So what 'changed' in the Bible to allow for this nowadays?... Or is it just musings to be interpreted to the advantage of the interpreter?..hmmmm that's at least a nickle's worth there, hehe
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Post by Dire.Wolf{QAW} on Jul 19, 2007 15:07:01 GMT -5
great points already have been made
i don't deny that a 'first mover' makes sense - something started the ball rolling
however here is a basic difference between creationism and evolution creation says - it is the only truth but offers no proof - you have to have faith evolution says - here is what we know, and here is what we theorize happened BIG difference you can't teach them side by side, because religion says that the bible is infallible, where as secular texts say this is what we've learned so far and we are still learning creationism says that it is exclusively true - any other theory, suggestions, considerations are wrong evolution says the more we learn, the more we find out how much we don't know, and we definitely don't understand it all yet
a separate point - religious belief has to have no proof, making faith critical - if God suddenly offered 'proof' to the world, faith would no longer be a question - everyone who observed the proof would believe in God, the same way as you believe anything you see with your own eyes, negating faith
getting into heaven is based on faith without proof, so 'proving' that god exists, proving that jesus rose from the dead, etc has to be a faith thing
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Post by Dire.Wolf{QAW} on Jul 19, 2007 15:11:23 GMT -5
oh yeah - the guy in the video constantly hammers science for 'not knowing', yet, never admits that he has absolutely NO answers, other than to point at his bible
'the written word of god', that is, the bible, in my mind, isn't much different than other religious texts written long ago (and there sure were a lot of them)
all of them offer no proof, you have to have faith that what they say is true
anyone ever read how mormonism got started? this is what i heard, may not be accurate, and to me is pretty funny
the author of the book of mormon claimed that an angel told him to go to a particular spot in the woods, dig, and he would find a lens by which he could view some gold tablets which was god's word (newer than the new testament anyway) then, he had to dictate to another guy what he read, and the other guy wrote it down, and wellah! the newer word of god
talk about having to have faith in a religious text, this one says - 'trust me, god told me to go to a place in the woods, with no-one else around, dig, and only i can use the magic lens that i found there, and i will read what it says and tell some other guy, who will write it down word for word, and then we will give it to the world, because god really wants us humans to have this new book' lol!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2007 15:24:26 GMT -5
Off topic what if question:What if god was batman?
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DaBastard
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Post by DaBastard on Jul 19, 2007 17:18:53 GMT -5
hmmm, Batman,..Robin,...Priests,...little boys,.. ya kno, i think u may have something there,...heheh
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2007 17:41:04 GMT -5
What would it be like Would it be like this:"Lets see you have donated thousands of dollors to charity, you took in injured animals and cared for them, you raised three amazing and successfull children, you have done hundreds of hours of community service.......you have doen alot but out of all that time you spent you couldn't read one of my god dam comics! Whats wrong with you! You are going to hell you non supportive asshole!"
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2007 18:01:51 GMT -5
Proof evolution is real: Just kidding, I actually don't believe in evolution at all, but rather Creationism, but I don't feel like typing a whole debate out and reading the books that have been typed already so I won't do a whole post defending it and rebuking evolution. But thats where I stand.
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Post by J_Bourne{QAW} on Jul 19, 2007 19:26:19 GMT -5
This topic will never be anything more than a headache.
Dabastard: your main point of contention seems to be with religion as a whole.
Sorry, I was wrong about the amount of energy that caused the big bang, that still does not answer the greater question of where that energy came from if it supposedly created EVERYTHING.
There is no way at all to answer with absolute certainty what created the universe, none. If it was the big bang then what created the thing that created it?
If it was God then what created God? Nothing can simply have ALWAYS existed.
So what do I do? I believe in both, they do not need to be mutually exclusive. You may think that they must, because the Church says otherwise, but the Church, and I'm a Catholic here, is a human construction. The Church is not God, the Bible (or any other holy book) is not God. God is God. What the Church says has no weight whatsoever on any of this, it is only a thing to be argued against.
In other words: They can both (sort of) suck it, Intelligent Design ftw!
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Post by DaBastard on Jul 19, 2007 21:26:42 GMT -5
JB, ur rite on the picking on religion thing, my bad,... it's jes all those... kinda stiks in me craw...anyhoo
the energy thing, this is the black hole/other universe theory thing. All that energy sucked up by other black holes in other universes are the Big Bangs in other universes. Again with the multi-dimensional thing, a knot twisted in upon itself with wormholes sorta thing. Time?ever?forever?,.. space-time... space can have an effect on time, who knows, maybe with enough space, wrapped around itself, with unimaginable energy has been around 'forever' and will exist 'forever' (in OUR perception).(gotta think beeeeeeg! in all this)
*and a correction on how much energy was at the beginning. What i mentioned before is what we were left! with. Most was a mix of protons and anti-protons, electrons and anti-electrons. MOST of what was at the beginning annihilated each other, we got left with the 'scraps'..hehe (100,000,000,000 galaxies full of 100,000,000,000 stars apiece, THAT'S a big doggie bag!)
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Post by Zohar{QAW} on Jul 19, 2007 21:43:49 GMT -5
My impression is that the big bang didnt CREATE anything, its just that EVERYTHING was one thing at that point, a concentration of all matter and energy as one "thing". Then it blew up, throwing everything outwards into the void to become the universe of matter/energy that we now know.
I think our big bang was just the most recent, and that the universe goes through a cycle of blow up->expand->collapse->huge uber-insane object made of pure enegry->blow up again-> expand->so on and so forth.
As for what set it in motion begin with? I dunno... Like yours, my brain balks at the thought of an eternal existance, our minds simply cannot literally concieve of eternity, or infinite space for that matter. So if I can accept as fact that space is infinite, even though my mind cannot literally concieve of the concept, I can accept that energy is eternal, meaning it never started and it never stops, it just is, and always has been.
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Post by ZeroTheHero on Jul 19, 2007 22:51:03 GMT -5
Chuck Norris.
2000 posts w00t.
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Post by DaBastard on Jul 20, 2007 0:13:44 GMT -5
Z, ur rite with the Big Bng didn't create anything, it was just a change of states of matter and matter/anti-matter reactions, plus the inflationary period wher it expanded beyond belief in for moments of existance.
What you describe is a Closed Universe, one with enough mass to pull itself back into a singularity. We live in an Open universe, it will go on expanding 'forever'.(Hubble discovered this) (A flat universe neither expands/contracts).
The stars will eventually all go away, along with galaxies, it will be very dark and cold.
Happens in about 1 trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion years, make a note of it on your calendars. hehe
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2007 21:06:25 GMT -5
If you look at Genesis and look at the scientists story of the beginning of Earth then you will see many remarkable similarities.
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Post by Sandman on Jul 29, 2007 12:10:55 GMT -5
People like to believe things.. As humans we need answers to everything. If we don't know the right answer then we will make up something which is believable. I am a Christian but it is hard for me to believe that God took 6 days and created earth. I am more drawn to the evolution theory which we have a bit more proof than a book that was written by someone who believed in creatism in the first place.
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