Questions about legitamate sking

[Deleted]

Hello there guys, i am writing to ask about a couple questions thats on every decent players minds. Is it ok, for an axis field op to use no spawn killing protection as an axcuse to hide in the spawn and shoot off arty? for example, gold rush? Heres my situation.... I was an allied engineer, respecting the blue shield protection, i would have taken my death like a man knowing that running threw the axis spawn is gareneed death had they spawned while i was running threw it. This is gold rush mind you, where you can access the bank by running threw the axis spawn to get to the bank. On my way threw, i saw a field ops just standing there, no blue shield protection on and moving around. I assumed that he was fair game because we all know, some field ops and mortars like hanging out in thier spawn because of sk protection. I was not spawn camping and my intention was not to spawn kill, but when a field ops is sitting in there spamming arty, he that not a reasonable reason to kill him? I know this question is on alot of peoples minds... Well, unfortaionatly, dupre desided to band me for it and i can no longer play on your server, which the rest of my clan, ks. play at when our server is down. I feel that my situation should not have resaulted in a total ban and i know other players should know if its exceptable for field ops to do that? thanks for your time.

[J_Bourne{QAW}]

You can run through that spawn. You can only shoot the following:
Mortar.
FO feeding ammo (to anyone, not just the mortar).
Medic feeding medpacks.
FO tossing Air Strikes or Arty.
Anyone who was outside of the spawn but ran back in.

Now, everyone pay very close attention.

The thing is, you need to be sure the player you are going to shoot has been doing one of those things. If you are wrong then you comited sk. Remember, just standing in the spawn without the blue shield does not make someone a target. Nor does standing in the spawn without a blue shield while happening to be a FO, Medic, or even a Mortar that has not yet set up to take a shot.

It all comes down to paying attention and being sure your intended target is a valid one.

[Deleted]

On Oasis the allies must run past the axis spawn, they can see into it while running past to the guns. As an allied player if I see an axis standing in the spawn area with no blue shield on, I cannot allow them to have the first shot if they are active. If true, then a good axis tactic is to have a player posted in the axis permanent spawn if : that person can wait (in protection) until he sees allied and can choose when to start the battle with a headshot etc. If an allied player is not targeting the spawn and is trying to get to the objective, he must be able to shoot any non-spawning (no blue shield recently) player as soon as he is seen (with light weapons, it would be unfair to use hvy or area weapons on a legitimate target in the spawn). If you want to type or admin or whatever when you are playing and you stop to do so, you are not protected, no matter where you stop, if you need to type and not die - go to spectator. If I give an enemy player the slightest pause to determine if they are afk or whatever, I instantly loose that fight. I know Hellzhitlist can learn the QAW rules and follow them. A permanent ban for this 1 arguable instance is unwarranted.

[Lion{QAW}]

The rules are simple:
1. Do not go into the areas indicated in red. Likewise, do not shoot, or throw artillery, mortar, place mines, etc. directly in these areas.
2. If you choose to take a “shortcut” through the opposing team’s spawn and there is an enemy present your choices are to run and/or pray. Any show of force even in defense will be considered spawn killing.

Exceptions:
1. All contestable spawns are fair game until such point as they are taken permanently.
2. You may enter the spawn in order to kill a Mortar or Field Ops that is utilizing the spawn for cover as they fight.
3. When an objective is in or near the spawn. For example:
Goldrush: When the tank has first been moved. Axis may continue to fight in the courtyard until the tank crosses the arch by the cart.
Radar: If the Allies have the parts and Axis suspect they are hiding in the forward bunker or the house they may enter in order to secure the parts. Once the parts are secured, Axis must once again respect spawn boundaries.

I warn or kick for spawnkilling if someone shoots into the red zones and the three exceptions don't apply. Shooting includes grenades, artillery, airstrikes, mortar, mines and even knives.

As I understand and enforce the rules, medics feeding medpacks and players being idle or busy typing/admining in spawn are NOT legitimate targets. They are not mentioned under the exceptions.

[Deleted]

OK, I am going to play axis from now on. I can stand in the spawn and wait for an allied to come by (or within the view of the red area). I will always win because I get the first shot. I will never be killed because I can use the spawn for protection. I will not be a mortar, fieldop. As long as I stay in the spawn I can shoot out and ambush anyone I can see or reach. The allied cannot shoot into my spawn so I am safe. According to the quote above, this is a legal tactic. I will stand perfectly still (appearing to type etc..) until I want to ambush. The best is the engineer who r-nades. Once I hear some combat, I fire my r-nade from the spawn into the sound of fighting, re-load, and do it again (I have encountered this type of player often on your server). If anyone shoots me while I ambush & fight from my spawn they will be banned. I admit it takes some of the fun out of the game, but winning is everything & I will have a great frag score.
-
Plz help us come to a rule that cannot be abused. The current one is broken.

[Baron{QAW}]

With all respect Eichmann I think you are making a mountain out of a molehill. Despite the sarcasm, I appreciate the respectful manner in which you are making your case. JB and Lion have already answered the questions posed so I will only respond to the scenario that you have put forward.

Firstly, to state the obvious, I don't think an Axis team with several players hiding in the spawn would ever win against a half capable Allied team, nor would they get a great frag score. Yes, some players will hide in a spawn from time to time, such is the nature of ET and its vast quantities of players that its an inevitability, but I believe those players are the minority.

Also I personally don't believe the advantage gained by one shot is profound enough to warrant a rule change. Once a player has shot at you from spawn they are a legitimate target, if you want to play Axis next time I am Allies on Oasis I would be more than happy to devote some time to testing your theory. I honestly do understand what you are saying but I just think the advantage gained is minimal.

Bottom line, you can't just run into the spawn and kill people. I can only apologise that an Axis player might gain a one bullet advantage in this one area of one map but that's just the way the map is. How can the sk rule be adapted to suit this scenario without it then being abused on other maps?

[Lion{QAW}]

OK, I am going to play axis from now on. I can stand in the spawn and wait for an allied to come by (or within the view of the red area). I will always win because I get the first shot

Be my guest. Mind you though that the action of the game is outside the spawn. And there it should be. Hence the rules.

[Corvus{QAW}]

Lets clear up some facts.

There is no shooting in spawn unless mortar or artie feeding or hiding is concerned.

To ks.hell... I was dupre. There was sk going on and i was the duck. Yes i was FO, but not throwing arty, if i wanted to do so i would do it upstairs near bridge . I was waiting for a respectable regular to make a mistake again and unfortunately you did it too. You know the server and the rules, you had played here earlier so there would be no warn kick for you from me. Indeed, to agree with ks.Eich... its a bit unwarranted, a perma is too harsh. But if i do the days or week it would be just like 'oh ok' and return with business as usual. Now we can have the conversation we wanted in the first place. I very regret it that i didn’t catch the regular in question myself, but his name will be spread :/

I also regret that i banned a friendly clan member. And I think I shouldn’t be the only one with those feelings. KS. is very respectable, please be so at QAW too, like always. You and Eich should also be a little more considerate with our rules and don’t try to push it. It ruins the playing of everybody. Complaining is ok, but leave it at the forums, what was going on yesterday with global blabla shouldn’t be so from an allied clan member. This is the place to do so. The sk issue with Eich earlier that night was quite similar, we QAW sometimes get messages for sk so we check things out, really, the things you see when we do so are too much and bizarre to describe, even from regulars :/ . Eich was disputed among us that night and it only, I mean ONLY, due to the length of the discussion among us members(not the one he continued himself) an action was cancelled. We were on our guard and so it happened again.

The post of ks.Hell is very decent and deserves something back. It is better to leave the suggestions of what should have been done, it will not ease a decision in a positive way. Nor will it help to react in a thread with an attitude like post 4, like Baron said.

With sk administration actions its always something: denial or trying to turn and turn and turn to make your own action legit. I think a bit of reflection and honesty is better. I myself was amazed last night.

Will lift ban now because, this case indeed, it has been discussed here and will not happen again I hope.

But will we learn

[BichKilla{QAW}]

I would like to add this as something similar will be up on the website soonish.

To Eich, I was TheTippingPoint yesterday on the server during the the situation that Corvus mentioned. You were attacking the spawn with other players on your team as I spawned. As I began to type a global warning you killed me and even came back to pick me off a second time after I was healed and standing in the spawn typing a warning to you. You were not going for the objective you were attacking the spawn. No one can defend the south gun from the axis spawn so there should not be any battles there. This is what we need to get away from, going into the spawn to look for a fight. It is one thing to follow or be followed into the spawn. But to go into the spawn to fight players who have just spawned is unacceptable.


The "Nature of the No Spawnkilling Rules"

The following is something to keep in mind when playing on our servers or reading up on our rules. The philosophy behind no spawnkilling is an easy one to understand. In an objective based game, we want to give both teams the ability to spawn and make their way to the objective where the battle will be won. In an attempt to allow for this we have created zones that give each team to chance to spawn and make their way towards the objective without fear of being attacked. These areas should not be attacked by the apposing team nor should they be used as safe
zones or places to attack from. Players choosing to attack from the spawn such as a mortar, MG, or field ops can be attacked but keep in mind there will be spawning players in the area that should not be attacked. Non-captureable spawns are not objectives and should not be treated as such. Any attempt that has the intent of killing players directly after spawning, or of keeping players in the spawn by camping or firing into spawn doors can and will be seen as spawnkilling. In addition, killing players who have no spawn shield but are not attacking can be considered spawnkilling.

If you focus your game play on the objective, and keep in mind the nature of the no spawnkilling rules you should be able to play on our servers without any issues.

[Deleted]

Thanks guys. :-) I only play the devil's advocate to stretch the envelope and check all the edges. I sometimes get frustrated with new axis players who adopt this tactic. It is difficult for me to leave a enemy player alone when I see one as I am always beset by enemies especially from behind. Dead men tell no tales (until they spawn again).

[Deleted]

The only legitimate sking:


;D

[Sandman]

wat about if there is a engy planting mines by the stairs going up from spawn on oasis can i cap him?

[BichKilla{QAW}]

I would say he is fair game.

[J_Bourne{QAW}]

Yeah. Any action that can help your team or harm the other team makes you a legitimate target.

[Baron{QAW}]

Dec 2, 2008 18:27:13 GMT -5 Sandman said:

wat about if there is a engy planting mines by the stairs going up from spawn on oasis can i cap him?

Best sk question ever. Lol Sands you have no idea how many times I have wondered about that on the server...

EDIT: ...and forgotten to ask in forums until the next time...

[corymbe]

What if I run trought the axis spawn in oasis and take the stairs, someone is shooting in my back, can I return fire? I always let myself kill and dont return fire. This threat is confusing me. ;D

[J_Bourne{QAW}]

As long as you were already in the spawn when they start shooting you may NOT return fire until you have left the sk zone.

[Deleted]

Had one today, FO hiding in the spawn and throwing airstrikes and running back in. I mentioned the player to Lestat. I think I will start a list.

[J_Bourne{QAW}]

Why?

There is nothing wrong with doing that. You can still go in there and kill him. Just don't shoot anyone else.

[Lestat{QAW}]

I think the point Eichmann is trying to get to is that it's simply cheap to do it. I mean yes, we can go in there and kill him, but 1 or 2 seconds later 5 or 8 axis spawn and we're dead 'cause we can't shoot back.

Even so, I don't actually see it as a big deal as i've only seen 2 players doing that consistently. Almost all field ops I've seen throw airstrikes/arty and run either to the tunnel exit or behind guns (or, in my case, run straight forward and get self-obliterated ;D)

Anyhow Eichmann, it's completely fair to chase and kill these guys as I did yesterday. Chances to survive are slim if you catch an axis spawn immediately, but at least you killed the coward hiding ;-)

[revojake]

Dec 2, 2008 22:55:09 GMT -5 J_Bourne{QAW} said:

Yeah. Any action that can help your team or harm the other team makes you a legitimate target.

That statement confuses me with the one saying that medics aren't a legit target if they are feeding medpacks to the team...
Which is it?
Can you shoot a medic who is throwing medpacks to his team from spawn or not?

[Dan!el{QAW}]

Dec 6, 2008 8:57:57 GMT -5 revojake said:

Dec 2, 2008 22:55:09 GMT -5 J_Bourne{QAW} said:

Yeah. Any action that can help your team or harm the other team makes you a legitimate target.

That statement confuses me with the one saying that medics aren't a legit target if they are feeding medpacks to the team...
Which is it?
Can you shoot a medic who is throwing medpacks to his team from spawn or not?

J_Bourne said:

Youcan run through that spawn. You can only shoot the following:
Mortar.
FO feeding ammo (to anyone, not just the mortar).
Medic feeding medpacks.
FO tossing Air Strikes or Arty.
Anyone who was outside of the spawn but ran back in.

Where did people say you can't shoot medics feeding medpacks?

[Deleted]

so basically anyone doing anything other than going out of spawn or just sitting there doing nothing is game

[BichKilla{QAW}]

But.......NO ONE SHOULD BE ATTACKING THE SPAWN! THE SPAWN IS NOT AN OBJECTIVE AND SHOULD NOT BE TREATED AS SUCH! AND REALIZE THAT ATTACKING A LEGIT TARGET IN THE SPAWN CAN RESULT IN YOU ATTACKING A NON-LEGIT TARGET THAT COUNT BE SEEN AS SPAWNKILLING. There will be no leeway for people attacking the spawn trying to bend rules to trap people at their spawn point. Focus on the objective and everyone will be fine.

[Lion{QAW}]

I would like to suggest that if medics feeding medpacks in spawn are legitimate targets after all, they would deserve their honorable mention under the exceptions to the no spawnkilling rule on this site.

[J_Bourne{QAW}]

Dec 6, 2008 12:12:19 GMT -5 Dan!el{QAW} said:

Where did people say you can't shoot medics feeding medpacks?

I was just laying out as much as I could think of.

BK is right, even if you attack legitimate targets in the spawn you do run the risk of attacking non legitimate targets as well. The ability to attack certain targets within the spawn zone exists out of necessity, since people inside can take actions that have effects outside of the spawn. Limit yourselves to those necessary times and you should be fine. Just be careful who you shoot!

[Deleted]

with all due respect,
and feel free to delete this if you feel flammed...

why is it qaw's are resorting to using aliases
and baiting in regular players to break the rules?

that aint the qaw way..
least not the last time i checked.

nothing says WE [qaw] enforce the rules better when their official tags are on.

it keeps the nubs in check,

but then again, if yall are experiencing relaxed tags
who wouldnt like to break the rules when noones looking

huh?


in essence im not egging on anyone to break rules,
rather looking at this from an outsider's standpoint.

sorry to drag this out.

[J_Bourne{QAW}]

Dec 7, 2008 10:51:01 GMT -5 @neckutter said:

why is it qaw's are resorting to using aliases
and baiting in regular players to break the rules?
...
who wouldnt like to break the rules when noones looking

That is actually a great question and one that should be addressed, just so that it is on the record.

From time to time if there is sk supposedly going on which non of us have seen one of us will take a little longer getting out of the spawn, just to see what happens. Its just a way of being sure a rule is being broken when we have doubts.

As for doing it in disguise... well, it is exactly to keep an eye on regulars. We want to make sure that everyone is playing by the rules even when it looks like none of us are on the server. Think of it like the police going on a stakeout. We want the servers rules to be honored all the time, not just when we are obviously there. Most regulars do that, and call out other when they don't, and we are grateful for that. However, we still need to enforce against the occasional two-face. The only way to do that is by appearing to not be on the server.

Remember, playing on the server is not a right, it is a privilege. Privileges can be revoked.

[BichKilla{QAW}]

I guess I dont really see how admins using other names is baiting anyone to break the rules. If you know the rules, you should not be breaking them. It's like saying that because the car window is open the owner is baiting me to steal their stereo.....

[J_Bourne{QAW}]

Or that when Yekoms wears that little black number he is baiting us in to *#%$!#$$ #%#@% his $%#$@% and then getting #&(*& before $#^%$ @#$$#% not to mention #@@$@ a duck %#$%@ finally $&*(%#& @##%#% without a plunger.


Even though we all know its true.